Peace on Earth

[holly_evolving]

As long as there is Man (meaning the human race) there will be war. Mankind as an entity is incapable of peaceful existence. This does not mean that we must stop striving for peace, only that we must not act surprised when we fail. This does not make mankind evil. Killing for pleasure is not a sport reserved for humans; cats and weasels revel in the blood of their victims even when their hunger is sated. We are animals--violent, visceral animals. To pretend otherwise is to be blind to our own desires--and to continually be the unsuspecting victims of them, instead of their masters.

Platypus

Comments

Pleasure?

[grumpymonkey.livejournal.com]

I'm not certain you meant that statement to say some of what it did. I understand where you were driving with the comments about animals killing when survival is not at stake, but it sounds like you are saying they... and we... take pleasure in violence and because of it, wars are inevitable.

While I do agree that violence is part of the birthright of humanity and unavoidable in some senses, I am fairly certain war is not something that is caused by that desire. Boxing, wrestling, bar fights, gang warfare, spousal abuse, video games, demolition derby, hunting (in some cases)... all of these can be totally or partially attributed to our carnal desire to cause or witness violence. I know I tune into NASCAR just to see 'the Big One'.

Where war departs from these activities is in the planning and political execution. I do agree that wars are inevitable, but its more from a desire for power and dominance than from any desire to spill blood. POliticians and other national/regional leaders will use whatever tool necessary to reach thier ends... they wouldn't be leaders if they didn't have that ambition. When you are considering a leader who has access to soldiers... be they the American military machine or a militia of local guerrillas... those troops will eventually come into play. Military might is too strong a chesspiece to leav eon the back row.

Should we be surprised by wars? No. Should we strive to find other solutions? Yes. Will wars continue to happen, waged by 'good' and 'bad' countries alike? Certainly. Do the majority of soldiers and majority of leaders relish the idea of spilling blood. Not at all.

Trying to decide if mankind is evil for its propensity for violence is like trying to determine if all birds are good because they sing pretty songs. Just as some birds do not sing or have unpleasant cries, some people like violence and some few actually revel in it. It doesn't speak for the group, merely for the individual. Placing a value judgment on manking is ludicrous. Placing the blame on individuals for thier actions is necessary, but does nothing to address the problem of violence on the large scale.

How does one elevate popular and competant leaders if you seek only the ones that abhor violence and have no ambition strong enough or political stance/beleif strong enough to make the deployment of troops unlikely or anathema?

Re: Pleasure?

[holly-evolving.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right, I wasn't clear enough. I think tangentially, and I often write stream-of-consciousness. I don't think (most) humans join wars for fun (while I do respect most soldiers, I'm not sure about the motivations of all of them).

I can't bring myself to say that most wars are necessary, maybe it's just the hippie in me. I think if you're going to be pro-soldier, you kind of have to be anti-war. However, I never meant to imply that I think nations go to war because they like to.

I like the way you think. I was trying to maintain a neutral tone; that was the whole point of saying that war is an inborn trait of the human race. I don't personally think that it's a good thing, but I'm never surprised or hurt by the fact that it happens. That's what I really wanted to get across. Man is neither good nor evil, it simply is. The same can be applied to war, but "good" and "evil" seem better replaced by "right" and "wrong" to me in that case. There can be noble causes, but death is still death. That's why I have a problem with fake soldiers being President: how can you send someone to die for your beliefs when you are unwilling to do the same?

See? Tangential. I do it all the time; that's why I try not to debate.

Other reasons mankind kills that make it not unique among the animal kingdom: territory. Property. Resources. Aggravation (wild boar, rhinoceros, hippopotomas, elephant come to mind). Love (tell me baboon mothers don't love their young! They kill leopards to protect them).

Any others?

Re: Pleasure?

[grumpymonkey.livejournal.com]

Tangentally (that a word?) to that, I have another thought. War is not only inevitable and a purely human creation, but it is also necessary. War is like natural selection finding another way for our population to be curbed. Disease? It may be good for some animals, but we breed quicker and overcome them too fast. Starvation? There is some, but we have circumvented the need to be near resources with food distribution networks. Natural predators? Well,unless you count ourselves, we don't have any.

So... support a soldier, it's int he best interests of the species that we kill each other off occasionally.

I love being an optimist.

Re: Pleasure?

[holly-evolving.livejournal.com]

I don't know that I agree with you on war specifically being the necessary scourge of humanity, but we do need one, and it serves. As for disease, it is killing us effectively...it's just man-made disease at this point. Chemical dependencies are effective tools for getting people to repeatedly poison themselves until death; they're just not usually efficient or simple means. I'm not sure that war has a higher death rate than poisoning (especially overdose/other drug complications--don't forget alcohol and nicotine!) but the large chucks it deals in as opposed to the slow and steady process of chemical certainly make it seem that way.

Anyone have stats handy?

[fist-of-khonshu.livejournal.com]

I blame it on the weasels, for setting a poor example.

[holly-evolving.livejournal.com]

I blame them for sharing genetic material with our rodent ancestors.

It's the rodents! They hold the source to all emotion and motivation! We must seek to understand the rodents! Rats hold the key!

Them and cynognathus.